Hyel: Oh... I was a kid. I saw the F/S when I reread it after I'd had my head dunked in slash repeatedly for a few years.
Aniron: heh.
Aniron: I didn't see it the first time, I admit.
Hyel: Now I see that had that been written today, Tolkien would have had to assume the relationship would be read as a homosexual one. On the other hand back in the day, too, C.S. Lewis told him so.
Hyel: Or so I hear.
Hyel: Tolkien was probably offended.
Aniron: ha!
Aniron: I can just see it.
Aniron: Um, John - you do realise these fellows read like sodomites?
Aniron: heh.
Hyel: *ggl*
Aniron: somebody should so write that conversation
Hyel: "WHAT?"
Hyel: You be Lewis, I'll be Tolkien - come on!
Aniron: hah.
Aniron: Ok.



Lewis: "Well, I mean to say, old chap, how many fellows go about kissing their friends' hands like that?"

Tolkien: "Really, I think that is just disgusting. Why read a perfectly innocent kiss in such horrid way? Was it not customary in the old days that a kiss between brothers or, indeed, a mother and a child, was nothing but an innocent - and frequent - expression of affection?"

Lewis: "Oh, come along, old man! You say that, but will the youth of today say that? How would you react if I were to leap across right now and kiss you?"

Tolkien: "Steady on, old fellow. I am sure that my readership will understand that this is in the context of a different time, a time when - as Faramir points out - it was even customary to kiss as a farewell, no matter what the gender and relation of the parting friends, as long as the affection was agreed upon?"

Lewis: "Really, I think you overestimate these teenagers! I mean, will the - what do they call themselves - teddy boys think that? Will they think that when Sam allows Frodo to rest his head in his lap? John, I'm afraid that will be read as Frodo having his head in dear Sam's groin."

Tolkien: *sputters* "I am trying to retain my composure, but you are being quite impossible today. I think my readership will mostly consist of those who enjoyed The Hobbit; I cannot see how you would thing queers would be in especial interested in that old children's book. I quite refuse to believe that every sign of affection which my characters chose to show each other should be so unseemingly misread."

Lewis: "But, John, you seem not to realise that it isn't only the 'queers', as you put it, who will see this underlying relationship! Girls will think it adorable, and boys will think it laughable! Really, you have made it far too easy for them! Why was the gardener drawing the bedroom curtains if not because he had spent the night with his master?"

Tolkien: "Well... perhaps he...Oh. I might not have taught that through very carefully. I did think Sam would rather help Frodo around the house too, wake him up fresh in the morning and all that. I will have to make a note of that later tonight; perhaps it is a little odd. But I refuse to downplay their affection for each other; that would be a crime against them, and they would rebel terribly, I'm afraid."

Lewis: (with a mischeivous smirk) "Yes, quite, John. Sam will be very annoyed if the readers of the Book do not see the - erm - deeper relationship he had with his master. I am afraid that, when you spoke of Sam waking Frodo, I saw him doing it in a quite inappropriate manner."

Tolkien"..." *stares* "My dear friend. What a mind you have. What a mind. If I didn't know better I might suspect you of... well, never mind. I am resolved - I cannot go against my characters very much - let them see them in a false light if they must. It is immaterial, in any case, and I DO hope people will not get too carried away with any such silliness.

"But perhaps I will leave out that scene where... Hmm, yes."

Lewis: (picking up his tea - pauses mid-movement) "Which scene, John?"

Tolkien: "Oh, just something in the drafts. I was thinking of leaving it out in any case, since it seemed immaterial, though sweet in itself."

Lewis: (pressing now) "Come, John, tell me - what exactly was in this scene?" (chuckling) "I only wish to know the depths of your - um - naivete."

Tolkien: "Oh, you would call innocence naivete! I still think - oh, but we have been through this a hundred times and more. In the light of what you say, I think I had better leave out the scene I penned, but even that was mostly for my own fancy - you know how I could not keep from having some echoes of the Bible from my little story, of Christianity?"

Lewis: "Yes, and that is quite understandable, but how -"

Tolkien: "And since there is a certain purification needed for Frodo to wash the journey off him before he can go on to the sea, with the elves, to step into Paradise so to speak, I had planned for this bathing scene..."

Lewis: "Oh, for goodness' sake, John! You planned a blatantly unmissable homosexual love scene, is what you planned." (with a sigh) "The Cirith Ungol scene was bad enough -"

Tolkien: "I did NOT! Nothing of the sort! A bathing scene, that was all! Do you never bathe with other men? In rural areas, baths are hardly ever the private affair it is in modern households."

Lewis: (chuckling) "I'm quite sure that, in your quite enviable innocence, you didn't see the connotations, John. But - the episode of Frodo's leaning on Sam in Moria, and then they engage in some sort of - cuddle, and then the kssing, and the stroking, and the sleeping in each others' laps - not to mention Frodo practically proposing to Sam at the end - it's too much, John!"

Tolkien: "I'm quite sure I DON'T know what you're talking about, and you are taking these instances entirely out of context. Very well, I will leave out the bath scene - and the part where Frodo watches Sam sleep - in any case the purification isn't quite in place because psychologically it doesn't fit with him leaving, and in any case the journey could be seen as the experience of shucking off the mortal coil..."

Lewis: "And in any case, it doesn't matter whether these scenes are there or not, since on the basis of all the other ones somebody will write them in, even if it isn't you."

Tolkien: "Surely the author's right to the original text doesn't stretch to allow additions of entire scenes by other writers!"

Lewis: "Oh, that's what you think, is it? Don't you know that fans of the great Jane Austen publish their - um - expansions on her works in magazines?"

Tolkien: "Ah, but such writing should not bother me. All mythologies must expand after all, it is in the nature of mythologies! I would like, one day, to see The Lord of the Rings as a play - why not? As long as sight of the original is not entirely lost, as an author I will be quite content. As to what you were saying about the nature of Sam and Frodo's love - which is indeed great - I cannot stop people from assuming what they will, but I do think it is a garish and undesirable interpretation to assume that their affection would be something... something so vulgar, I suppose, there is no other word for it."

Lewis: (smiling enigmatically) "Ah, but who is to say that it is a vulgar assumption, my dear fellow? Who is to say that it would not then be the greatest love of all?"

Tolkien: "As a Christian, you say this? No - such relations should exist between a man and a wife. That is a curious question - and a vital one - Sam has his Rosie, after all, an entirely different love. Frodo has no problem with this - proving their affection is in a different plane, seeing as Frodo does not see Rosie as a threat at all. No - I know the characters in my head. Frodo does love Sam dearly, but has no desire to own or rule him, for all Sam calls him 'master'. He does feel like he is falling out of step with the Shire, and with Sam's life, which so easily starts anew with the rebuilding of his beloved land. But there is no jealousy for Rosie, or bitterness that this is so - and as far as I have learned the sort of love we are discussing is a possessive one..."

Lewis: "Oh, not necessarily. As you have said, it is not in Frodo's nature to be so possessive, especially for something he knows he cannot have. As a Christian, John, I say that there was never anything shameful in any sort of love by the standards of our Lord jesus Christ. Paul's words on the matter, I'm afraid, are of little importance to me, and didn't Christ renounce the laws of the Old Testament? By your standards, should a man come into contact with mildew he will be forever in sin until he has sacrificed three doves to the Lord."

Tolkien: "I am not saying that we should live by the archaic rules of the Old Testament - but as a Christian, we are to keep our loves pure. I see my hobbits - especially these two of course - as very innocent, or even naive as you might say, and perhaps almost untouched by sin. And it is sin to get into frivolous relationships that are fueled only by desire - desire, lust, leads only to heartbreak - the purest of relationships exist between those who are partners in their life and their works, and not drawn to each other merely by the power of their loins. But I have gotten off the point - for Frodo and Sam's relationship is exactly that, partnership in face of hardship - and the truest, deepest love - that between friends. Now - if we were to entertain the idea of sensuality for a moment - as it obviously was not what drew them together in the first place - or are you going to contest this, too? I hope not, for all your comment about the drawing of curtains! - if we entertain the idea that - oh, I cannot believe you have me discussing this."

Lewis: "Ah, but you see, I quite agree with you. I do not for a moment think that their love springs from lust. I think rather that it seems a further dimension emerged from their love, their trust and sacrifice. It is not unusual, surely, that the love would grow and then perhaps wish to show itself in this way? I really think, old fellow, that this is something which, in today's changing world, must be discussed, whether you wish it or not!" (a smile) "And, of course, the image of the curtain-drawing I can use to tease you forever more."

Tolkien: "Another matter to tease me about, to add to the pile of old ones - I suppose that will make no difference at this point." (weary) "You do have a point in that this is a concern, although I do wish you had not brought it up at all - I should be happier for it. Now, yes, let us consider sensuality. In the trenches - well, it isn't the same as in our everyday world, as you know, and I rather equate their journey and harships with the horrors of war - of course I do. It is a story of war. Now that you have felt the need to put the thought in my head I will allow that - if you must entertain such thoughts - it isn't entirely impossible that - well, such relations can be a comfort, a way of being close, as much as wanton lust. But that is not really any of our business and not a part of my story, and I should tell you that my hobbits are quite miffed at you and I for peeking in on their private matters. I am sure you would not like to talk about such things, if you'd experienced them, for they are so easily misunderstood. In any case I do not think such things would, ought, could or needed to be a regular part of their relationship."

Lewis: "Quite so, old man. If that is what you think, I respect the opinion. I never once thought you would concede that you'd schemed to convey some sort of homosexual message, never fear. i was only anxious that you realise how others will see it, and perhaps consider what we have just talked about; the comforting element of the matter. Why, you sounded almost human when you said that."

Tolkien: "Almost human? I should be offended, but I shall take that as a compliment instead. As long as we are reconciled and have ended this rather distressing conversation, I am happy. I do hope - and think - my story won't be quite successful enough for me to get many letters from people wishing to address this subject. The letters I have received concerning The Hobbit have all been quite pleasant - well, save for some rather odd ones from publishers and a lady in Eton. I care not what people make of my hobbits, although I do take your points into account and as always appreciate your feedback. Even when it is silly."

Lewis: (chuckling, taking up his tea.) "I'm glad of it, old man. Don't worry, I'm sure that Lord of The Rings will bloom far beyond your control. My word, you are stubborn at times. Still, never mind. I stick by you."



Aniron: (oh, dear, I'm sooooooo getting the urge to make this lewis/tolkien! eek!)
Hyel: That was fun!
Aniron: hee, i know!
Hyel: And it's all saved now.
Hyel: I shall post it in places. Whee, my first Tolkien fic! As in, really TOLKIEN fic. *giggles*
Aniron: Eeee. I made Lewis a liberal. Oops.
Hyel: *lol*
Aniron: Dood, I so wanted to end it with tolkien/lewis! eek!
Aniron: that's just wrong. yes.
Hyel: Well, shove them back in the trenches and they'll be doing it soon enough. Mwahaha.
Aniron: lol!
Aniron: Now have this image of Lewis the Liberal doing this snarky fake-chatting up of Tolkien The Grate Repressed just to see how he'd react/
Hyel: Oh dear, what HAVE we started!
Aniron: it ate my brain.
Hyel: I know, that happens. Those naughty Oxford professors!
Hyel: ...I can't believe I just said that.
Aniron: *ggl*
Aniron: i know.
Hyel: Oxford professor pr0n.
Hyel: Oh my Sam.